My friend posting a comment as anonymous wrote, “I feel it in my bones that something cataclysmic is coming.” Hyperbole? Perhaps! Written after the writer has spent two tours of duty in Iraq; maybe not.
Most of us living in America now have learned about the range of human achievement and depravity through books of history and the reporting and experiences of others. Most of us living in America now have never come close to the depravity end of this spectrum. Most of us feel immune to the worst of what humanity has to offer, but my friend, serving in Iraq, did experience and live depravity up close and personal. He no longer feels immune.
I don’t yet share his pessimism, but I do know depressions and wars and heartaches are just as normal for humanity as prosperity and peace and happiness. Americans have enjoyed many years of relative peace and prosperity. Could we handle the depravity end of the spectrum? Could we even imagine a world where laws are routinely ignored, where justice is a quaint concept, where poverty is most common, and where wealth and power rule supreme?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
14 comments:
Thanks for honoring me with your citation here, David. Boy, I hope my pessimism is unwarranted and you're right! Time will tell.
Again, well said!
Dave
Thank you, Dave, for your service! And you, too, David.
I pray we are not headed for a great depression or wars. I sadly doubt how well our culture would react to such a crisis, at least at first. But I would imagine that is the historical pattern, along with the growth and increased control of government, perhaps not knowing what they do.
Yet I also suspect that there could be some beneficial resolve, attitude, focus, and understanding that may only lie at the other end of such societal struggles and heartaches. An understanding that Dave may already have.
And if that be the case, I just pray and strive that we come out of it better than we entered. One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.
Thank you, gentlemen, again, for your service and sacrifice.
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Thank you for stopping by and leaving a comment.
While certainly worse than nowadays, even during the great depression and during World War II, most Americans were immune to historical difficulty. The Civil War was probably the worst point in American history, yet we don’t have any accounts of civilians or soldiers being murdered for no apparent reason.
I think America is in for a period, perhaps even an extended period, of difficulty, but I can’t imagine a time in the future when Americans will allow other Americans to starve or a time when Americans will murder other Americans who get in the way of what they want and get away with it. However, our human nature is no different than the nature of the Germans 70 years ago or the Rwandans now. We have it in us to do horrible things.
I am not saying President Obama will lead us down a path of depravity. I suspect he will be a president similar to Clinton, sticking a finger in the air, and then getting out in front of the parade. But I do think America has lost its way a little. We don’t stand on principle much anymore. Nowadays, we do what is expedient.
One of the pitfalls to be avoided is viewing one's present circumstances with little or no sense of the sweep or perspective of history. American culture on the whole is preoccupied with the now and the future, with little or no regard for the past, except as it is related to them, thanks to government education, through the lens of the politically correct.
On the other hand, those of us in the evangelical camp, can tend to view history - as far as we actually study it - through the pre-trib-post-trib (take your pick), Left Behind filter, as if the evil we see is somehow new or the worst it's ever been. If we take our Scripture seriously, some of these arguments give us cause to stop and consider. One of the problems with this, however, is that I see all too many of us developing a gnostic attitude toward our world and culture. While not getting caught up in it, we need to stay engaged, seek to be salt and light.
God's in His heaven, but where's the balance?
I appreciate, David, that you take seriously this sweep of history and cast a skeptic's eye on much of what comes out of both camps.
Blessings,
Dave
Thanks Dave!
Things have to get much, much, worse in America for us to move away from this historical prosperity end of the spectrum. I believe the need for big government, and the dependency on big government, is movement away from prosperity and a movement toward depravity because I believe God created us to be free, wants us to be free, and blesses us with freedom. This trend, like all trends, seems like it will go on forever, until it doesn’t, just like most every other trend.
I am saddened by believers who equate spiritual health with material prosperity. I hope my faith and my circumstances are never ever related. I hope I can praise God regardless of my physical comfort. Personally, my life is about as good as it has ever been, so even if times get tougher, I could still get up most mornings with a smile on my face.
I sense that the view of God many Americans have is not an orthodox view. Too many Americans want to use the power of government to enforce a morality, or more accurately an immorality, that must be displeasing to God, if Scripture is to be believed.
I don’t envision a catastrophe because I think America still has a soul with at least some orthodox morality. We are not at a point yet where we are like the Germans or Japanese of 70 years ago, but we are getting to the point where we won’t stand against the great evils of our time, abortion and terrorism, so a catastrophe for our nation and the world is possible at some point.
We need to be ready and we need to prepare our children to be ready for the worst, but we also must pray and hope the grace of God remains on our country.
Hi David,
I don't know about Americans being immune to historical difficulty, but I agree that suffering is relative. I think it is that relative shock of having less and adjusting to want less and sacrifice more that will effect suicides and crime, even if we are still far better off than other countries or cultures.
"But I do think America has lost its way a little. We don’t stand on principle much anymore. Nowadays, we do what is expedient."
I get that sense, too, and sometimes a sense of entitlement. If the principle of taking from the rich to give to the poor is morally justified, then why wouldn't the poor be justified in taking directly from the rich?
I wonder how a depression will effect that principle, as we look to the government to save us, yet also rely more upon one another. Ultimately, however, I share your faith in the love and determination of the American people and our ability to adapt and grow.
I like your prediction for Obama. He could do worse than getting in front of what the majority, or ideally, super-majority would like.
Kevin
David,
With regard to a catastrophe. I, too, hope that Dave is wrong. However, I had a dream about 2 1/2 years ago that woke me up in a cold sweat. There was a great wave coming at us. It was huge, maybe 50 ft. high. But when it hit the shore, it collapsed and did little damage ... just as we were celebrating, thinking that we had dodged the bullet, a second, even large wave hit, and devestated everything. I think that the first wave has just happened with the financial crisis that is passing. We will seem to recover, but then a worse financial disaster will happen.
As for "we're not as bad as the Germans of 70 years ago" ... in Michigan we just passed a stem-cell research bill (does the name Josef Mengele ring a bell ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele).
The week before elections, I asked our Wednesday night prayer group to read through Daniel 9, and to confess our sin as a nation. Not to pray for one party or the other, but just to beg for God's mercy and not his judgement. I am not sure which we got, yet.
Buz
By the way, does it bother anyone besides me the way they are promoting this change to digital TV. Not only have there been ads on for a year (I think if the creatures from Alpha Centauri are watching our TV, they know by now), but the latest thing I heard is that if you have trouble hooking up, the National Guard will be there to help.
If you read 1984, don't touch that dial ... no, I really mean it ... DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL ... OR ELSE !!
Buz
Hi Prophet Buz,
Nobody knows the specifics of what will happen in the future, but we do know at some point, the world will face a great tribulation. Until the tribulation happens, life could get better or worse in cycles.
The Bible seems to describe the tribulation as a convergence of horrific events that happen very quickly without much forewarning.
Your vision and Dave’s feelings could be a precursor to the tribulation. My best guess is that we are in a down cycle economically and a down cycle spiritually, but just as I do not foresee a catastrophe, I know at some point we may have to face a world that is significantly more deranged than anything we have experienced before.
This is why I asked my original question. I don’t think very many people, even God fearing Christians are ready.
David,
I don't know if the depravity will be as you imagine. Perhaps it will be more to the idea of evil being called good, and everyone doing what they think is good.
Remember that when Satan lied to Eve in the Garden of Eden, he didn't say "let's do something awful", he said "this is GOOD".
I think that there will be a great many people who think that they are doing good ... tricked into it by leaders convincing them that evil is good.
I think that misguided good can be more dangerous than depravity ... if people KNOW that they are doing wrong, then they will shy away when confronted because something inside them tells them that they are wrong and cannot stand up to examination. But, when someone believes that they are right, they will fight with all their energy to win.
Buz
Hi again Buz,
Ideas have consequences. I agree with you that we are at a seminal point in American history where good is being defined as evil and evil is being defined as good for at least half and probably more of our population.
Now we are moving to a period where we will see the results of this confused morality. We will have to live with the results of people believing it is good to force some people to pay for the health care of others. We will have to live with the results of gay marriage. We will have to live with the results of maximizing profits regardless of who gets hurt.
While I agree we are in a period of thought depravity, I think the depravity will be worse once the consequences of thought depravity are realized. However, it is never too late to repent and reverse the bad trends.
Been visiting family over the holiday, and been thinking a lot about consequences. Seeing relatives who, 30 years ago, thought that they were living the "free" lifestyles.
Seeing them now makes me realize the truth of the phrase that I heard from some preacher 30+ years ago. "We don't break God's laws, we break ourselves upon them." Just as a boat running into a burried crag will not destroy the crag, but will destroy itself when it hits.
The most painful thing is that now I can also see that they have not only ruined their lives but their children's lives, also. And they are on their way to ruining their grandchildren's lives.
How arrogant we are when we think that we will be the one person to sneer in the face of God and get away with it.
Buz
Thanks Buz, great comment.
Hey, David and Buz:
As I was reading you latest comment, Buz, I couldn't help thinking of a couple of recent posts from Ilana Mercer's "Barely a Blog" (She's a Classic Liberal-Austrian-school-of-economics-Ron Paul-secular-Jew, who happens to be very sympathetic to our Constitution and its Judeo-Christian foundation). Take a gander at "Your Godless Government at Work" and "What the Torah & Talmud Teach About Moral Hazard (Bailouts)". I think you'll find a great deal that hits home.
Blessings,
Dave
Post a Comment